If you like to father them on me; that we must not admit them is certain.
Again, truth should be highly valued.
- If a lie is useless to the gods, and useful only as a medicine to men, then the use of such medicines should be restricted to physicians.
- Private individuals have no business with them.
- Then if any one is to have the privilege of lying, the rulers of the State should be those persons.
- In their dealings either with enemies or with their own citizens, they may be allowed to lie for the public good.
- But nobody else should meddle with anything of the kind.
- Although the rulers have this privilege, for a private man to lie to them in return is to be deemed a more heinous fault than for the patient or the pupil of a gymnasium not to speak the truth about his own bodily illnesses to the physician or to the trainer, or for a sailor not to tell the captain what is happening about the ship and the rest of the crew, and how things are going with himself or his fellow sailors.
- If, then, the ruler catches anybody beside himself lying in the State, 'Any of the craftsmen, whether he be priest or physician or carpenter,' he will punish him for introducing a practice which is equally subversive and destructive of ship or State.
- Most certainly, he said, if our idea of the State is ever carried out.
- Our youth must be temperate.
- The chief elements of temperance are generally:
- obedience to commanders and
- self-control in sensual pleasures.
- Then we shall approve such language as that of Diomede in Homer
- 'Friend, sit still and obey my word,'
- 'The Greeks marched breathing prowess, ...in silent awe of their leaders,'
- The line:
- 'O heavy with wine, who hast the eyes of a dog and the heart of a stag,'
- These, when addressed to rulers are ill spoken.
- They can afford some amusement.
- But they do not conduce to temperance.
- Therefore they are likely to do harm to our young men.
- To make the wisest of men say that nothing in his opinion is more glorious than:
- 'When the tables are full of bread and meat, and the cup-bearer carries round wine which he draws from the bowl and pours into the cups,'
- Is it fit or conducive to temperance for a young man to hear such words? Or the verse:
- 'The saddest of fates is to die and meet destiny from hunger?'
- What would you say again to the tale of Zeus, who, while other gods and men were asleep and he the only person awake, lay devising plans, but forgot them all in a moment through his lust, and was so completely overcome at the sight of Here that he would not even go into the hut, but wanted to lie with her on the ground, declaring that he had never been in such a state of rapture before, even when they first met one another.
- 'Without the knowledge of their parents.'
- or that other tale of how Hephaestus, because of similar goings on, cast a chain around Ares and Aphrodite?
- Indeed. I strongly think that they should not hear that sort of thing.
- But any deeds of endurance which are done or told by famous men, these they ought to see and hear; as, for example, what is said in the verses.
- 'He smote his breast, and thus reproached his heart, Endure, my heart; far worse hast thou endured!'
- In the next place, we must not let them be receivers of gifts or lovers of money.
- Neither must we sing to them of:
- 'Gifts persuading gods, and persuading reverend kings.'
- Phoenix is the tutor of Achilles.
- Phoenix did not give Achilles good counsel when he told him to take the gifts of the Greeks and assist them.
- He should have told Achilles that he should not lay aside his anger without a gift.
- We cannot believe:
- that Achilles himself was such a lover of money as to take Agamemnon's gifts, or
- that when he had received payment he restored Hector's dead body, but that without payment he was unwilling to do so.
- I love Homer.
li or his insubordination to the river-god, on whose divinity he is ready to lay hands; or his offering to the dead Patroclus of his own hair, which had been previously dedicated to the other river-god Spercheius, and that he actually performed this vow; or that he dragged Hector round the tomb of Patroclus, and slaughtered the captives at the pyre; of all this I cannot believe that he was guilty, any more than I can allow our citizens to believe that he, the wise Cheiron's pupil, the son of a goddess and of Peleus who was the gentlest of men and third in descent from Zeus, was so disordered in his wits as to be at one time the slave of two seemingly inconsistent passions, meanness, not untainted by avarice, combined with overweening contempt of gods and men.
| Let us equally refuse to believe:
li the tale of Theseus son of Poseidon, or of Peirithous son of Zeus, going forth as they did to perpetrate a horrid rape; or
li of any other hero or son of a god daring to do such impious and dreadful things as they falsely ascribe to them in our day:
li Let us further compel the poets to declare either that these acts were not done by them, or that they were not the sons of gods;—both in the same breath they shall not be permitted to affirm.
li We will not have them trying to persuade our youth that the gods are the authors of evil, and that heroes are no better than men—sentiments which, as we were saying, are neither pious nor true, for we have already proved that evil cannot come from the gods.
li And further they are likely to have a bad effect on those who hear them; for everybody will begin to excuse his own vices when he is convinced that similar wickednesses are always being perpetrated by—
li 'The kindred of the gods, the relatives of Zeus, whose ancestral altar, the altar of Zeus, is aloft in air on the peak of Ida,'
li and who have
li 'the blood of deities yet flowing in their veins.'
li Let us put an end to such tales, lest they engender laxity of morals among the young.
li But now that we are determining what classes of subjects are or are not to be spoken of, let us see whether any have been omitted by us.
li The manner in which gods and demigods and heroes and the world below should be treated has been already laid down.
li But what about men?
| We are not in a condition to answer this question at present because men poets and story-tellers are guilty of making the gravest misstatements when they tell us:
li that wicked men are often happy
li that the good miserable
li that injustice is profitable when undetected
| but that justice is a man's own loss and another's gain
| We shall:
li forbid them to say these things
li command them to say the opposite.
| If you admit that I am right in this, then you have implied the principle for which we have been all along contending.
li Such things are or are not to be said about men is a question which we cannot determine until we have discovered what justice is, and how naturally advantageous to the possessor, whether he seem to be just or not.
- I hardly like to say that in attributing these feelings to Achilles, or in believing that they are truly attributed to him, he is guilty of downright impiety.
- As little can I believe the narrative of his insolence to Apollo, where he says:
- You have wronged me, O most abominable of deities.
- I would get revenge with you if only I had the power.'
Enough of the subjects of poetry.
- Let us now speak of the style.
- When this has been considered, both matter and manner will have been completely treated.
- All mythology and poetry is a narration of events, either past, present, or future.
- Narration may be either simple narration, or imitation, or a union of the two?
- You know the first lines of the Iliad, in which the poet says that Chryses prayed Agamemnon to release his daughter, and that Agamemnon flew into a passion with him; whereupon Chryses, failing of his object, invoked the anger of the God against the Achaeans. Now as far as these lines, 'And he prayed all the Greeks, but especially the two sons of Atreus, the chiefs of the people,'
The poet is speaking in his own person; he never leads us to suppose that he is any one else.
In this double form he has cast the entire narrative of the events which occurred at Troy and in Ithaca and throughout the Odyssey.
li A narrative remains both in the speeches which the poet recites from time to time and in the intermediate passages.
li But when the poet speaks in the person of another, he assimilates his style to the person he is speaking to.
li This assimilation of himself to another, either by the use of voice or gesture, is the imitation of the person whose character he assumes.
li In this case the narrative of the poet may be said to proceed by way of imitation.
li Or, if the poet everywhere appears and never conceals himself, then again the imitation is dropped, and his poetry becomes simple narration. However, in order that I may make my meaning quite clear, and that you may no more say, 'I don't understand,' I will show how the change might be effected. If Homer had said, 'The priest came, having his daughter's ransom in his hands, supplicating the Achaeans, and above all the kings;' and then if, instead of speaking in the person of Chryses, he had continued in his own person, the words would have been, not imitation, but simple narration. The passage would have run as follows (I am no poet, and therefore I drop the metre), 'The priest came and prayed the gods on behalf of the Greeks that they might capture Troy and return safely home, but begged that they would give him back his daughter, and take the ransom which he brought, and respect the God. Thus he spoke, and the other Greeks revered the priest and assented. But Agamemnon was wroth, and bade him depart and not come again, lest the staff and chaplets of the God should be of no avail to him—the daughter of Chryses should not be released, he said—she should grow old with him in Argos. And then he told him to go away and not to provoke him, if he intended to get home unscathed. And the old man went away in fear and silence, and, when he had left the camp, he called upon Apollo by his many names, reminding him of everything which he had done pleasing to him, whether in building his temples, or in offering sacrifice, and praying that his good deeds might be returned to him, and that the Achaeans might expiate his tears by the arrows of the god,'—and so on. In this way the whole becomes simple narrative.
li Or you may suppose the opposite case—that the intermediate passages are omitted, and the dialogue only left.
| That also, he said, I understand; you mean, for example, as in tragedy.
| Poetry and mythology are, in some cases, wholly imitative—instances of this are supplied by tragedy and comedy.
li There is likewise the opposite style, in which the poet is the only speaker—of this the dithyramb affords the best example; and the combination of both is found in epic, and in several other styles of poetry.
li In saying this, I intended to imply that we must come to an understanding about the mimetic art,—whether the poets, in narrating their stories, are to be allowed by us to imitate, and if so, whether in whole or in part, and if the latter, in what parts; or should all imitation be prohibited?
| You mean, I suspect, to ask whether tragedy and comedy shall be admitted into our State?
li Yes, but there may be more than this in question.
li I really do not know as yet, but whither the argument may blow, thither we go.
li Should our guardians be imitators?
li ; or rather, has not this question been decided by the rule already laid down that one man can only do one thing well, and not many; and that if he attempt many, he will altogether fail of gaining much reputation in any?
li This is equally true of imitation.
li No one man can imitate many things as well as he would imitate a single one?
| He cannot.
li Then the same person will hardly be able to play a serious part in life, and at the same time to be an imitator and imitate many other parts as well; for even when two species of imitation are nearly allied, the same persons cannot succeed in both, as, for example, the writers of tragedy and comedy—did you not just now call them imitations?
| Yes, I did; and you are right in thinking that the same persons cannot succeed in both.
| Any more than they can be rhapsodists and actors at once?
| Neither are comic and tragic actors the same; yet all these things are but imitations.
| They are so.
li Human nature appears to have been coined into yet smaller pieces
li to be as incapable of imitating many things well, as of performing well the actions of which the imitations are copies.
li If then we adhere to our original notion and bear in mind that our guardians, setting aside every other business, are to dedicate themselves wholly to the maintenance of freedom in the State, making this their craft, and engaging in no work which does not bear on this end, they ought not to practise or imitate anything else; if they imitate at all, they should imitate from youth upward only those characters which are suitable to their profession—the courageous, temperate, holy, free, and the like; but they should not depict or be skilful at imitating any kind of illiberality or baseness, lest from imitation they should come to be what they imitate. Did you never observe how imitations, beginning in early youth and continuing far into life, at length grow into habits and become a second nature, affecting body, voice, and mind?
li Then we will not allow those for whom we profess a care and of whom we say that they ought to be good men, to imitate a woman, whether young or old, quarrelling with her husband, or striving and vaunting against the gods in conceit of her happiness, or when she is in affliction, or sorrow, or weeping; and certainly not one who is in sickness, love, or labour.
li Neither must they represent slaves, male or female, performing the offices of slaves?
| They must not.
li And surely not bad men, whether cowards or any others, who do the reverse of what we have just been prescribing, who scold or mock or revile one another in drink or out of drink, or who in any other manner sin against themselves and their neighbours in word or deed, as the manner of such is.
li Neither should they be trained to imitate the action or speech of men or women who are mad or bad; for madness, like vice, is to be known but not to be practised or imitated.
li Neither may they imitate smiths or other artificers, or oarsmen, or boatswains, or the like?
li How can they, he said, when they are not allowed to apply their minds to the callings of any of these?
li Nor may they imitate the neighing of horses, the bellowing of bulls, the murmur of rivers and roll of the ocean, thunder, and all that sort of thing?
| Nay, he said, if madness be forbidden, neither may they copy the behaviour of madmen.
| You mean, I said, if I understand you aright, that there is one sort of narrative style which may be employed by a truly good man when he has anything to say, and that another sort will be used by a man of an opposite character and education.
| And which are these two sorts?
li Suppose, that a just and good man in the course of a narration comes on some saying or action of another good man,—
li I should imagine that he will like to personate him, and will not be ashamed of this sort of imitation: he will be most ready to play the part of the good man when he is acting firmly and wisely; in a less degree when he is overtaken by illness or love or drink, or has met with any other disaster.
li But when he comes to a character which is unworthy of him, he will not make a study of that; he will disdain such a person, and will assume his likeness, if at all, for a moment only when he is performing some good action;
li at other times he will be ashamed to play a part which he has never practised, nor will he like to fashion and frame himself after the baser models; he feels the employment of such an art, unless in jest, to be beneath him, and his mind revolts at it.
li Then he will adopt a mode of narration such as we have illustrated out of Homer, that is to say, his style will be both imitative and narrative;
li but there will be very little of the former, and a great deal of the latter.
| That is the model which such a speaker must necessarily take.
li But there is another sort of character who will narrate anything, and, the worse he is, the more unscrupulous he will be; nothing will be too bad for him:
li He will be ready to imitate anything, not as a joke, but in right good earnest, before many people.
| He will
| attempt to represent:
li the roll of thunder,
li the noise of wind and hail, or
li the creaking of wheels, and pulleys, and
li the various sounds of flutes, pipes, trumpets, and other instruments:
li bark like a dog,
li bleat like a sheep, or
li crow like a cock;
| His entire art will consist in imitation of voice and gesture.
li There will be very little narration.
li These are the two kinds of style.
| One of them is simple and has but slight changes
li If the harmony and rhythm are also chosen for their simplicity, the result is that the speaker, if he speaks correctly, is always pretty much the same in style, and he will keep within the limits of a single harmony (for the changes are not great), and in like manner he will make use of nearly the same rhythm?
li Whereas the other requires all sorts of harmonies and all sorts of rhythms, if the music and the style are to correspond, because the style has all sorts of changes.
li The two styles, or the mixture of the two, comprehend all poetry, and every form of expression in words.
li No one can say anything except in one or other of them or in both together.
li shall we receive into our State all the three styles, or one only of the two unmixed styles? or would you include the mixed?
| I should prefer only to admit the pure imitator of virtue.
li Yes, Adeimantus.
li But the mixed style is also very charming: and the pantomimic, which is the opposite of the one chosen by you, is the most popular style with children and their attendants, and with the world in general.
li Do you think that it is unsuitable that human nature should make men only have one role in our State, instead of twofold or manifold?
| Yes; quite unsuitable.
| This is why in our State, and in our State only, we shall find:
li a shoemaker to be a shoemaker and a pilot also,
li a husbandman to be a husbandman and a dicast also,
li a soldier a soldier and a trader also
li These pantomimic gentlemen are so clever that they can imitate anything/
| When they propose to us to exhibit himself and his poetry, we will fall down and worship him as a sweet and holy and wonderful being.
li But we must also inform him that in our State such as he are not permitted to exist
li The law will not allow them.
li When we have anointed him with myrrh, and set a garland of wool upon his head, we shall send him away to another city.
| For we mean to employ for our souls' health the rougher and severer poet or story-teller, who will:
li imitate the style of the virtuous only,
li follow those models which we prescribed when we began the education of our soldiers.
| Yes if we have the power.
li Then that part of music or literary education which relates to the story or myth may be considered to be finished; for the matter and manner have both been discussed.
li Next in order will follow melody and song.
li Every one can see already what we ought to say about them, if we are to be consistent with ourselves.
| Glaucon" (laughing) I fear that the word 'every one' hardly includes me, for I cannot at the moment say what they should be; though I may guess.
| A song or ode has three parts:
li the words,
li the melody, and
li the rhythm
| There is no difference between words which are and which are not set to music.
li Both will conform to the same laws
li The melody and rhythm will depend on the words.
li We had no need of lamentation and strains of sorrow.
| And which are the harmonies expressive of sorrow? You are musical, and can tell me.
li The harmonies which you mean are the mixed or tenor Lydian, and the full-toned or bass Lydian, and such like.
li These then must be banished; even to women who have a character to maintain they are of no use, and much less to men.
li In the next place, drunkenness and softness and indolence are utterly unbecoming the character of our guardians.
li And which are the soft or drinking harmonies?
| The Ionian, and the Lydian; they are termed 'relaxed.'
li Well, and are these of any military use?
| Quite the reverse, he replied; and if so the Dorian and the Phrygian are the only ones which you have left.
li Of the harmonies I know nothing.
li But I want to have one warlike, to sound the note or accent which a brave man utters in the hour of danger and stern resolve, or when his cause is failing, and he is going to wounds or death or is overtaken by some other evil, and at every such crisis meets the blows of fortune with firm step and a determination to endure; and another to be used by him in times of peace and freedom of action, when there is no pressure of necessity, and he is seeking to persuade God by prayer, or man by instruction and admonition, or on the other hand, when he is expressing his willingness to yield to persuasion or entreaty or admonition, and which represents him when by prudent conduct he has attained his end, not carried away by his success, but acting moderately and wisely under the circumstances, and acquiescing in the event.
li These two harmonies I ask you to leave; the strain of necessity and the strain of freedom, the strain of the unfortunate and the strain of the fortunate, the strain of courage, and the strain of temperance; these, I say, leave.
| These are the Dorian and Phrygian harmonies
li If these and these only are to be used in our songs and melodies, we shall not want multiplicity of notes or a panharmonic scale?
li Then we shall not maintain the artificers of lyres with three corners and complex scales, or the makers of any other many-stringed curiously-harmonised instruments?
li But what do you say to flute-makers and flute-players?
li Would you admit them into our State when you reflect that in this composite use of harmony the flute is worse than all the stringed instruments put together; even the panharmonic music is only an imitation of the flute?
li There remain then only the lyre and the harp for use in the city, and the shepherds may have a pipe in the country.
li That is surely the conclusion to be drawn from the argument.
li The preferring of Apollo and his instruments to Marsyas and his instruments is not at all strange, I said
li And so, by the dog of Egypt, we have been unconsciously purging the State, which not long ago we termed luxurious.
li Then let us now finish the purgation.
li Next in order to harmonies, rhythms will naturally follow.
li They should be subject to the same rules, for we ought not to seek out complex systems of metre, or metres of every kind, but rather to discover what rhythms are the expressions of a courageous and harmonious life;
li When we have found them, we shall adapt the foot and the melody to words having a like spirit, not the words to the foot and melody.
li To say what these rhythms are will be your duty—you must teach me them, as you have already taught me the harmonies.
| But I cannot tell you. I only know that there are some three principles of rhythm out of which metrical systems are framed, just as in sounds there are four notes (i.e. the four notes of the tetrachord.) out of which all the harmonies are composed; that is an observation which I have made. But of what sort of lives they are severally the imitations I am unable to say.
| Then we must take Damon into our counsels.
| He will tell us:
li what rhythms are expressive of meanness, or insolence, or fury, or other unworthiness, and
li what are to be reserved for the expression of opposite feelings.
| I think that I have an indistinct recollection of his mentioning a complex Cretic rhythm; also a dactylic or heroic,
| he arranged them in some manner which I do not quite understand, making the rhythms equal in the rise and fall of the foot, long and short alternating;
| he spoke of an iambic as well as of a trochaic rhythm, and assigned to them short and long quantities.
| Also in some cases he appeared to praise or censure the movement of the foot quite as much as the rhythm; or perhaps a combination of the two; for I am not certain what he meant.
| These matters, had better be referred to Damon himself, for the analysis of the subject would be difficult
| (Socrates expresses himself carelessly in accordance with his assumed ignorance of the details of the subject.
| In the first part of the sentence he appears to be speaking of paeonic rhythms which are in the ratio of 3/2
| In the second part, of dactylic and anapaestic rhythms, which are in the ratio of 1/1;
| In the last clause, of iambic and trochaic rhythms, which are in the ratio of 1/2 or 2/1.)
li But there is no difficulty in seeing that grace or the absence of grace is an effect of good or bad rhythm.
li Good and bad rhythm naturally assimilate to a good and bad style;
| Harmony and discord in like manner follow style; for our principle is that rhythm and harmony are regulated by the words, and not the words by them.
| Just so, he said, they should follow the words.
li The words and the character of the style depend on the temper of the soul
li Everything else depends on the style.
li Then beauty of style and harmony and grace and good rhythm depend on simplicity
li I mean the true simplicity of a rightly and nobly ordered mind and character, not that other simplicity which is only an euphemism for folly?
li Our youth must make these graces and harmonies their perpetual aim.
| The art of the painter and every other creative and constructive art are full of them:
li every kind of manufacture;
| In all of the following, there is grace or the absence of grace:
li Ugliness and discord and inharmonious motion are nearly allied to ill words and ill nature, as grace and harmony are the twin sisters of goodness and virtue and bear their likeness.
li But shall our superintendence go no further, and are the poets only to be required by us to express the image of the good in their works, on pain, if they do anything else, of expulsion from our State?
li Or is the same control to be extended to other artists, and are they also to be prohibited from exhibiting the opposite forms of vice and intemperance and meanness and indecency in sculpture and building and the other creative arts; and is he who cannot conform to this rule of ours to be prevented from practising his art in our State, lest the taste of our citizens be corrupted by him? We would not have our guardians grow up amid images of moral deformity, as in some noxious pasture, and there browse and feed upon many a baneful herb and flower day by day, little by little, until they silently gather a festering mass of corruption in their own soul.
li Let our artists rather be those who are gifted to discern the true nature of the beautiful and graceful; then will our youth dwell in a land of health, amid fair sights and sounds, and receive the good in everything; and beauty, the effluence of fair works, shall flow into the eye and ear, like a health-giving breeze from a purer region, and insensibly draw the soul from earliest years into likeness and sympathy with the beauty of reason.
| There can be no nobler training than that, he replied.
| Therefore, Glaucon, musical training is a more potent instrument than any other, because:
| rhythm and harmony find their way into the inward places of the soul
| They will mightily:
li fasten on these places
li impart grace
li make the educated soul graceful, or
li make the uneducated soul ungraceful.
| he who has received this true education of the inner being will:
li most shrewdly perceive omissions or faults in art and nature, and
li with a true taste, he becomes noble and good while he praises and receives into his soul the good
| will justly blame and hate the bad, now in the days of his youth, even before he knows why
li When reason comes he will recognise and salute the friend with whom his education has made him long familiar.
| Yes, our youth should be trained in music and on the grounds which you mention.
li Just as in learning to read, we were satisfied when we knew the letters of the alphabet, which are very few, in all their recurring sizes and combinations; not slighting them as unimportant whether they occupy a space large or small, but everywhere eager to make them out; and not thinking ourselves perfect in the art of reading until we recognise them wherever they are found:
li Or, as we recognise the reflection of letters in the water, or in a mirror, only when we know the letters themselves; the same art and study giving us the knowledge of both:
li Even so, as I maintain, neither we nor our guardians, whom we have to educate, can ever become musical until we and they know the essential forms of temperance, courage, liberality, magnificence, and their kindred, as well as the contrary forms, in all their combinations, and can recognise them and their images wherever they are found, not slighting them either in small things or great, but believing them all to be within the sphere of one art and study.
li And when a beautiful soul harmonizes with a beautiful form, and the two are cast in one mould, that will be the fairest of sights to him who has an eye to see it?
| The fairest indeed.
li The fairest is also the loveliest.
li And the man who has the spirit of harmony will be most in love with the loveliest; but he will not love him who is of an inharmonious soul?
| Yes if the deficiency be in his soul. But if there be any merely bodily defect in another he will be patient of it, and will love all the same.
li I perceive, I said, that you have or have had experiences of this sort, and I agree.
li But let me ask you another question: Has excess of pleasure any affinity to temperance?
| How can that be? Pleasure deprives a man of the use of his faculties quite as much as pain.
li Or any affinity to virtue in general?
| None whatever.
li Any affinity to wantonness and intemperance?
| Yes, the greatest.
li And is there any greater or keener pleasure than that of sensual love?
| No, nor a madder.
li Whereas true love is a love of beauty and order—temperate and harmonious?
| Quite true, he said.
li Then no intemperance or madness should be allowed to approach true love?
| Certainly not.
li Then mad or intemperate pleasure must never be allowed to come near the lover and his beloved; neither of them can have any part in it if their love is of the right sort?
| No, it must never come near them.
li In the city which we are founding, you would make a law that a friend should use no other familiarity to his love than a father would use to his son, and then only for a noble purpose, and he must first have the other's consent;
li this rule is to limit him in all his intercourse
li he is never to be seen going further, or, if he exceeds, he is to be deemed guilty of coarseness and bad taste.
li Thus much of music, which makes a fair ending; for what should be the end of music if not the love of beauty?
li After music comes gymnastic, in which our youth are next to be trained.
li Gymnastics and music should begin in early years.
li The training in it should be careful and should continue through life.
li I think that bodily excellence does not improve the soul.
strong Rather, the good soul, by her own excellence, improves the body as far as this may be possible.
li When the mind is adequately trained, more particular care of the body can be handed over.
li That they must abstain from intoxication
li A guardian should be the last to get drunk.
| Yes, a guardian should require another guardian to take care of him is ridiculous.
li What about their food?
li The men are training for the great contest of all.
li Will the habit of body of our ordinary athletes be suited to them
li I am afraid that a habit of body such as they have is but a sleepy sort of thing, and rather perilous to health.
| These athletes:
li sleep away their lives
li are liable to most dangerous illnesses if they depart from their customary regimen
| A finer sort of training will be required for our warrior athletes, who are:
li to be like wakeful dogs
li to see and hear with the utmost keenness; amid the many changes of water and also of food, of summer heat and winter cold, which they will have to endure when on a campaign, they must not be liable to break down in health.
li The really excellent gymnastic is twin sister of that simple music which we were just now describing.
| How so?
li Why, I conceive that there is a gymnastic which, like our music, is simple and good; and especially the military gymnastic.
li My meaning may be learned from Homer;
li he feeds his heroes at their feasts, when they are campaigning, on soldiers' fare;
li they have no fish, although they are on the shores of the Hellespont, and they are not allowed boiled meats but only roast, which is the food most convenient for soldiers, requiring only that they should light a fire, and not involving the trouble of carrying about pots and pans.
li Sweet sauces are nowhere mentioned in Homer.
li In proscribing them, however, he is not alone.
li All professional athletes know that men who are to be in good condition should take no sweets.
| Then you would not approve of:
li Syracusan dinners, and
li Athenian confectionary
li the refinements of Sicilian cookery?
li such a man having a Corinthian girl as his fair friend?
| I think not.
li All such feeding and living may be rightly compared by us to melody and song composed in the panharmonic style, and in all the rhythms.
li There complexity engendered licence, and here disease;
strong whereas simplicity in music was the parent of temperance in the soul; and simplicity in gymnastic of health in the body.
li But when intemperance and diseases multiply in a State, halls of justice and medicine are always being opened;
li The arts of the doctor and the lawyer give themselves airs, finding how keen is the interest which not only the slaves but the freemen of a city take about them.
li And yet what greater proof can there be of a bad and disgraceful state of education than this, that not only artisans and the meaner sort of people need the skill of first-rate physicians and judges, but also those who would profess to have had a liberal education?
| It is disgraceful and a lack of good-breeding, that:
li a man should have to go abroad for his law and physic because he has none of his own at home.
li he must surrender himself into the hands of other men whom he makes lords and judges over him?
li There is a further stage of the evil in which a man is not only a life-long litigant, passing all his days in the courts, either as plaintiff or defendant, but is actually led by his bad taste to pride himself on his litigiousness
li he imagines that he is a master in dishonesty; able to take every crooked turn, and wriggle into and out of every hole, bending like a withy and getting out of the way of justice: and all for what?—in order to gain small points not worth mentioning, he not knowing that so to order his life as to be able to do without a napping judge is a far higher and nobler sort of thing.
| Yes, that is still more disgraceful.
li Well, to require the help of medicine, not when a wound has to be cured, or on occasion of an epidemic, but just because, by indolence and a habit of life such as we have been describing, men fill themselves with waters and winds, as if their bodies were a marsh, compelling the ingenious sons of Asclepius to find more names for diseases, such as flatulence and catarrh; is not this, too, a disgrace?
| Yes, they do certainly give very strange and newfangled names to diseases.
li Yes, I do not believe that there were any such diseases in the days of Asclepius;
li and this I infer from the circumstance that the hero Eurypylus, after he has been wounded in Homer, drinks a posset of Pramnian wine well besprinkled with barley-meal and grated cheese, which are certainly inflammatory, and yet the sons of Asclepius who were at the Trojan war do not blame the damsel who gives him the drink, or rebuke Patroclus, who is treating his case.
| That was surely an extraordinary drink to be given to a person in his condition.
li Not so extraordinary, if you bear in mind that in former days, as is commonly said, before the time of Herodicus, the guild of Asclepius did not practise our present system of medicine, which may be said to educate diseases.
| But Herodicus was:
li a trainer
li himself of a sickly constitution
| By a combination of training and doctoring, he found out a way of torturing himself first and then the rest of the world.
li He invented the lingering death.
li He had a mortal disease which he perpetually tended.
li Recovery was out of the question.
li He passed his entire life as a valetudinarian;
li he could do nothing but attend upon himself, and he was in constant torment whenever he departed in anything from his usual regimen, and so dying hard, by the help of science he struggled on to old age.
| A rare reward of his skill!
| Yes, I said; a reward which a man might fairly expect who never understood that, if Asclepius did not instruct his descendants in valetudinarian arts, the omission arose, not from ignorance or inexperience of such a branch of medicine, but because he knew that in all well-ordered states every individual has an occupation to which he must attend, and has therefore no leisure to spend in continually being ill. This we remark in the case of the artisan, but, ludicrously enough, do not apply the same rule to people of the richer sort.
li When a carpenter is ill he asks the physician for a rough and ready cure
li An emetic or a purge or a cautery or the knife,—these are his remedies.
li If some one prescribes for him a course of dietetics, and tells him that he must swathe and swaddle his head, and all that sort of thing, he replies at once that he has no time to be ill, and that he sees no good in a life which is spent in nursing his disease to the neglect of his customary employment;
li Bidding good-bye to this sort of physician, he resumes his ordinary habits.
li He either gets well and lives and does his business.
li If his constitution fails, he dies and has no more trouble.
| Yes, a man in his condition of life should use the art of medicine thus far only.
li Has he not, I said, an occupation; and what profit would there be in his life if he were deprived of his occupation?
| But with the rich man this is otherwise; of him we do not say that he has any specially appointed work which he must perform, if he would live.
| He is generally supposed to have nothing to do.
| Then you never heard of the saying of Phocylides, that as soon as a man has a livelihood he should practise virtue?
| Nay, he said, I think that he had better begin somewhat sooner.
| Let us not have a dispute with him about this, I said; but rather ask ourselves: Is the practice of virtue obligatory on the rich man, or can he live without it? And if obligatory on him, then let us raise a further question, whether this dieting of disorders, which is an impediment to the application of the mind in carpentering and the mechanical arts, does not equally stand in the way of the sentiment of Phocylides?
| Of that, he replied, there can be no doubt; such excessive care of the body, when carried beyond the rules of gymnastic, is most inimical to the practice of virtue.
| Yes, indeed, I replied, and equally incompatible with the management of a house, an army, or an office of state; and, what is most important of all, irreconcileable with any kind of study or thought or self-reflection—there is a constant suspicion that headache and giddiness are to be ascribed to philosophy, and hence all practising or making trial of virtue in the higher sense is absolutely stopped; for a man is always fancying that he is being made ill, and is in constant anxiety about the state of his body.
| Yes, likely enough.
| And therefore our politic Asclepius may be supposed to have exhibited the power of his art only to persons who, being generally of healthy constitution and habits of life, had a definite ailment; such as these he cured by purges and operations, and bade them live as usual, herein consulting the interests of the State; but bodies which disease had penetrated through and through he would not have attempted to cure by gradual processes of evacuation and infusion: he did not want to lengthen out good-for-nothing lives, or to have weak fathers begetting weaker sons;—if a man was not able to live in the ordinary way he had no business to cure him; for such a cure would have been of no use either to himself, or to the State.
| Then, he said, you regard Asclepius as a statesman.
| Clearly; and his character is further illustrated by his sons. Note that they were heroes in the days of old and practised the medicines of which I am speaking at the siege of Troy: You will remember how, when Pandarus wounded Menelaus, they
| 'Sucked the blood out of the wound, and sprinkled soothing remedies,'
| but they never prescribed what the patient was afterwards to eat or drink in the case of Menelaus, any more than in the case of Eurypylus; the remedies, as they conceived, were enough to heal any man who before he was wounded was healthy and regular in his habits; and even though he did happen to drink a posset of Pramnian wine, he might get well all the same. But they would have nothing to do with unhealthy and intemperate subjects, whose lives were of no use either to themselves or others; the art of medicine was not designed for their good, and though they were as rich as Midas, the sons of Asclepius would have declined to attend them.
| They were very acute persons, those sons of Asclepius.
| Naturally so, I replied. Nevertheless, the tragedians and Pindar disobeying our behests, although they acknowledge that Asclepius was the son of Apollo, say also that he was bribed into healing a rich man who was at the point of death, and for this reason he was struck by lightning. But we, in accordance with the principle already affirmed by us, will not believe them when they tell us both;—if he was the son of a god, we maintain that he was not avaricious; or, if he was avaricious, he was not the son of a god.
| All that, Socrates, is excellent; but I should like to put a question to you: Ought there not to be good physicians in a State, and are not the best those who have treated the greatest number of constitutions good and bad? and are not the best judges in like manner those who are acquainted with all sorts of moral natures?
| Yes, I said, I too would have good judges and good physicians. But do you know whom I think good?
| Will you tell me?
| I will, if I can. Let me however note that in the same question you join two things which are not the same.
| How so? he asked.
| Why, I said, you join physicians and judges. Now the most skilful physicians are those who, from their youth upwards, have combined with the knowledge of their art the greatest experience of disease; they had better not be robust in health, and should have had all manner of diseases in their own persons. For the body, as I conceive, is not the instrument with which they cure the body; in that case we could not allow them ever to be or to have been sickly; but they cure the body with the mind, and the mind which has become and is sick can cure nothing.
| That is very true, he said.
| But with the judge it is otherwise; since he governs mind by mind; he ought not therefore to have been trained among vicious minds, and to have associated with them from youth upwards, and to have gone through the whole calendar of crime, only in order that he may quickly infer the crimes of others as he might their bodily diseases from his own self-consciousness; the honourable mind which is to form a healthy judgment should have had no experience or contamination of evil habits when young. And this is the reason why in youth good men often appear to be simple, and are easily practised upon by the dishonest, because they have no examples of what evil is in their own souls.
| Yes, he said, they are far too apt to be deceived.
| Therefore, I said, the judge should not be young; he should have learned to know evil, not from his own soul, but from late and long observation of the nature of evil in others: knowledge should be his guide, not personal experience.
| Yes, he said, that is the ideal of a judge.
| Yes, I replied, and he will be a good man (which is my answer to your question); for he is good who has a good soul. But the cunning and suspicious nature of which we spoke,—he who has committed many crimes, and fancies himself to be a master in wickedness, when he is amongst his fellows, is wonderful in the precautions which he takes, because he judges of them by himself: but when he gets into the company of men of virtue, who have the experience of age, he appears to be a fool again, owing to his unseasonable suspicions; he cannot recognise an honest man, because he has no pattern of honesty in himself; at the same time, as the bad are more numerous than the good, and he meets with them oftener, he thinks himself, and is by others thought to be, rather wise than foolish.
| Most true, he said.
| Then the good and wise judge whom we are seeking is not this man, but the other; for vice cannot know virtue too, but a virtuous nature, educated by time, will acquire a knowledge both of virtue and vice: the virtuous, and not the vicious, man has wisdom—in my opinion.
| And in mine also.
- But in what follows he takes the person of Chryses, and then he does all that he can to make us believe that the speaker is not Homer, but the aged priest himself.
This is the sort of medicine, and this is the sort of law, which you will sanction in your state.
| What then is the real object of them?
- They will minister to better natures, giving health both of soul and of body.
- But those who are diseased in their bodies they will leave to die, and the corrupt and incurable souls they will put an end to themselves.
- Thus our youth, having been educated only in that simple music which, as we said, inspires temperance, will be reluctant to go to law.
- The musician, who, keeping to the same track, is content to practise the simple gymnastic, will have nothing to do with medicine unless in some extreme case.
- The very exercises and tolls which he undergoes are intended to stimulate the spirited element of his nature, and not to increase his strength; he will not, like common athletes, use exercise and regimen to develope his muscles.
- Neither are the two arts of music and gymnastic really designed, as is often supposed, the one for the training of the soul, the other for the training of the body.
I believe that the teachers of both have in view chiefly the improvement of the soul.
| In what way shown? he said.
| The one producing a temper of hardness and ferocity, the other of softness and effeminacy, I replied.
- Did you never observe, I said, the effect on the mind itself of exclusive devotion to gymnastic, or the opposite effect of an exclusive devotion to music?
Yes, I am quite aware that the mere athlete becomes too much of a savage, and that the mere musician is melted and softened beyond what is good for him.
Yet surely, this ferocity only comes from spirit, which, if rightly educated, would give courage, but, if too much intensified, is liable to become hard and brutal.
- On the other hand the philosopher will have the quality of gentleness.
- And this also, when too much indulged, will turn to softness, but, if educated rightly, will be gentle and moderate.
- The guardians should have both these qualities and both should be in harmony.
- The harmonious soul is both temperate and courageous.
- The inharmonious is cowardly and boorish.
- When a man allows music to play upon him and to pour into his soul through the funnel of his ears those sweet and soft and melancholy airs of which we were just now speaking, and his whole life is passed in warbling and the delights of song; in the first stage of the process the passion or spirit which is in him is tempered like iron, and made useful, instead of brittle and useless.
- But, if he carries on the softening and soothing process, in the next stage he begins to melt and waste, until he has wasted away his spirit and cut out the sinews of his soul; and he becomes a feeble warrior.
- If the element of spirit is naturally weak in him the change is speedily accomplished, but if he have a good deal, then the power of music weakening the spirit renders him excitable.
- On the least provocation he flames up at once, and is speedily extinguished.
- Instead of having spirit he grows irritable and passionate and is quite impracticable.
- And so in gymnastics, if a man takes violent exercise and is a great feeder, and the reverse of a great student of music and philosophy, at first the high condition of his body fills him with pride and spirit, and he becomes twice the man that he was.
- And what happens?
- If he do nothing else, and holds no converse with the Muses, does not even that intelligence which there may be in him, having no taste of any sort of learning or enquiry or thought or culture, grow feeble and dull and blind, his mind never waking up or receiving nourishment, and his senses not being purged of their mists?
- He ends by becoming a hater of philosophy, uncivilized, never using the weapon of persuasion.
- He is like a wild beast, all violence and fierceness, and knows no other way of dealing; and he lives in all ignorance and evil conditions, and has no sense of propriety and grace.
And as there are two principles of human nature, one the spirited and the other the philosophical, some God, as I should say, has given mankind two arts answering to them (and only indirectly to the soul and body), in order that these two principles (like the strings of an instrument) may be relaxed or drawn tighter until they are duly harmonized.
- He who mingles music with gymnastic in the fairest proportions, and best attempers them to the soul, may be rightly called the true musician and harmonist in a far higher sense than the tuner of the strings.
- Such a presiding genius will be always required in our State if the government is to last.
- Such, then, are our principles of nurture and education: Where would be the use of going into further details about the dances of our citizens, or about their hunting and coursing, their gymnastic and equestrian contests? For these all follow the general principle, and having found that, we shall have no difficulty in discovering them.
- Who are to be rulers and who subjects?
- There can be no doubt that the elder must rule the younger.
- The best of these must rule.
- The best husbandmen are those most devoted to husbandry.
- We should have the best of guardians for our city, those who have the characters of guardians.
- They should be wise and efficient and have a special care of the State.
- A man will be most likely to care about that which he loves?
- He will be most likely to love that which he regards as having the same interests with himself, and that of which the good or evil fortune is supposed by him at any time most to affect his own?
- Then there must be a selection. Let us note among the guardians those who in their whole life show the greatest eagerness to do what is for the good of their country, and the greatest repugnance to do what is against her interests.
They will have to be watched at every age, in order that we may see whether they preserve their resolution, and never, under the influence either of force or enchantment, forget or cast off their sense of duty to the State.
- A resolution may go out of a man's mind either with his will or against his will; with his will when he gets rid of a falsehood and learns better, against his will whenever he is deprived of a truth.
I understand, he said, the willing loss of a resolution; the meaning of the unwilling I have yet to learn.
Why, I said, do you not see that men are unwillingly deprived of good, and willingly of evil? Is not to have lost the truth an evil, and to possess the truth a good? and you would agree that to conceive things as they are is to possess the truth?
Yes, he replied; I agree with you in thinking that mankind are deprived of truth against their will.
This is not this involuntary deprivation caused either by theft, or force, or enchantment.
| ; Now you understand me?
| Those again who are forced, are those whom the violence of some pain or grief compels to change their opinion.
| I understand, he said, and you are quite right.
| And you would also acknowledge that the enchanted are those who change their minds either under the softer influence of pleasure, or the sterner influence of fear?
| Yes, he said; everything that deceives may be said to enchant.
| Therefore, as I was just now saying, we must enquire who are the best guardians of their own conviction that what they think the interest of the State is to be the rule of their lives. We must watch them from their youth upwards, and make them perform actions in which they are most likely to forget or to be deceived, and he who remembers and is not deceived is to be selected, and he who fails in the trial is to be rejected. That will be the way?
| And there should also be toils and pains and conflicts prescribed for them, in which they will be made to give further proof of the same qualities.
| Very right, he replied.
| And then, I said, we must try them with enchantments—that is the third sort of test—and see what will be their behaviour: like those who take colts amid noise and tumult to see if they are of a timid nature, so must we take our youth amid terrors of some kind, and again pass them into pleasures, and prove them more thoroughly than gold is proved in the furnace, that we may discover whether they are armed against all enchantments, and of a noble bearing always, good guardians of themselves and of the music which they have learned, and retaining under all circumstances a rhythmical and harmonious nature, such as will be most serviceable to the individual and to the State. And he who at every age, as boy and youth and in mature life, has come out of the trial victorious and pure, shall be appointed a ruler and guardian of the State; he shall be honoured in life and death, and shall receive sepulture and other memorials of honour, the greatest that we have to give. But him who fails, we must reject. I am inclined to think that this is the sort of way in which our rulers and guardians should be chosen and appointed. I speak generally, and not with any pretension to exactness.
| And, speaking generally, I agree with you, he said.
| And perhaps the word 'guardian' in the fullest sense ought to be applied to this higher class only who preserve us against foreign enemies and maintain peace among our citizens at home, that the one may not have the will, or the others the power, to harm us. The young men whom we before called guardians may be more properly designated auxiliaries and supporters of the principles of the rulers.
| I agree with you, he said.
| How then may we devise one of those needful falsehoods of which we lately spoke—just one royal lie which may deceive the rulers, if that be possible, and at any rate the rest of the city?
| What sort of lie? he said.
| Nothing new, I replied; only an old Phoenician tale (Laws) of what has often occurred before now in other places, (as the poets say, and have made the world believe,) though not in our time, and I do not know whether such an event could ever happen again, or could now even be made probable, if it did.
| How your words seem to hesitate on your lips!
| You will not wonder, I replied, at my hesitation when you have heard.
| Speak, he said, and fear not.
| Well then, I will speak, although I really know not how to look you in the face, or in what words to utter the audacious fiction, which I propose to communicate gradually, first to the rulers, then to the soldiers, and lastly to the people. They are to be told that their youth was a dream, and the education and training which they received from us, an appearance only; in reality during all that time they were being formed and fed in the womb of the earth, where they themselves and their arms and appurtenances were manufactured; when they were completed, the earth, their mother, sent them up; and so, their country being their mother and also their nurse, they are bound to advise for her good, and to defend her against attacks, and her citizens they are to regard as children of the earth and their own brothers.
| You had good reason, he said, to be ashamed of the lie which you were going to tell.
| True, I replied, but there is more coming; I have only told you half. Citizens, we shall say to them in our tale, you are brothers, yet God has framed you differently. Some of you have the power of command, and in the composition of these he has mingled gold, wherefore also they have the greatest honour; others he has made of silver, to be auxiliaries; others again who are to be husbandmen and craftsmen he has composed of brass and iron; and the species will generally be preserved in the children. But as all are of the same original stock, a golden parent will sometimes have a silver son, or a silver parent a golden son. And God proclaims as a first principle to the rulers, and above all else, that there is nothing which they should so anxiously guard, or of which they are to be such good guardians, as of the purity of the race. They should observe what elements mingle in their offspring; for if the son of a golden or silver parent has an admixture of brass and iron, then nature orders a transposition of ranks, and the eye of the ruler must not be pitiful towards the child because he has to descend in the scale and become a husbandman or artisan, just as there may be sons of artisans who having an admixture of gold or silver in them are raised to honour, and become guardians or auxiliaries. For an oracle says that when a man of brass or iron guards the State, it will be destroyed. Such is the tale; is there any possibility of making our citizens believe in it?
| Not in the present generation, he replied; there is no way of accomplishing this; but their sons may be made to believe in the tale, and their sons' sons, and posterity after them.
| I see the difficulty, I replied; yet the fostering of such a belief will make them care more for the city and for one another. Enough, however, of the fiction, which may now fly abroad upon the wings of rumour, while we arm our earth-born heroes, and lead them forth under the command of their rulers. Let them look round and select a spot whence they can best suppress insurrection, if any prove refractory within, and also defend themselves against enemies, who like wolves may come down on the fold from without; there let them encamp, and when they have encamped, let them sacrifice to the proper Gods and prepare their dwellings.
| Just so, he said.
| And their dwellings must be such as will shield them against the cold of winter and the heat of summer.
| I suppose that you mean houses, he replied.
| Yes, I said; but they must be the houses of soldiers, and not of shop-keepers.
| What is the difference? he said.
| That I will endeavour to explain, I replied. To keep watch-dogs, who, from want of discipline or hunger, or some evil habit or other, would turn upon the sheep and worry them, and behave not like dogs but wolves, would be a foul and monstrous thing in a shepherd?
| Truly monstrous, he said.
| And therefore every care must be taken that our auxiliaries, being stronger than our citizens, may not grow to be too much for them and become savage tyrants instead of friends and allies?
| Yes, great care should be taken.
| And would not a really good education furnish the best safeguard?
| But they are well-educated already, he replied.
| I cannot be so confident, my dear Glaucon, I said; I am much more certain that they ought to be, and that true education, whatever that may be, will have the greatest tendency to civilize and humanize them in their relations to one another, and to those who are under their protection.
| Very true, he replied.
| And not only their education, but their habitations, and all that belongs to them, should be such as will neither impair their virtue as guardians, nor tempt them to prey upon the other citizens. Any man of sense must acknowledge that.
| He must.
| Then now let us consider what will be their way of life, if they are to realize our idea of them.
| In the first place, none of them should have any property of his own beyond what is absolutely necessary; neither should they have a private house or store closed against any one who has a mind to enter; their provisions should be only such as are required by trained warriors, who are men of temperance and courage; they should agree to receive from the citizens a fixed rate of pay, enough to meet the expenses of the year and no more; and they will go to mess and live together like soldiers in a camp. Gold and silver we will tell them that they have from God; the diviner metal is within them, and they have therefore no need of the dross which is current among men, and ought not to pollute the divine by any such earthly admixture; for that commoner metal has been the source of many unholy deeds, but their own is undefiled. And they alone of all the citizens may not touch or handle silver or gold, or be under the same roof with them, or wear them, or drink from them. And this will be their salvation, and they will be the saviours of the State. But should they ever acquire homes or lands or moneys of their own, they will become housekeepers and husbandmen instead of guardians, enemies and tyrants instead of allies of the other citizens; hating and being hated, plotting and being plotted against, they will pass their whole life in much greater terror of internal than of external enemies, and the hour of ruin, both to themselves and to the rest of the State, will be at hand. For all which reasons may we not say that thus shall our State be ordered, and that these shall be the regulations appointed by us for guardians concerning their houses and all other matters?
| Yes, said Glaucon.
- I fear that I must have been talking darkly, like the tragedians.
- I only mean that some men are changed by persuasion and that others forget.
- Argument steals away the hearts of one class, and time of the other; and this I call theft.